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Crime in the Parks

Nov 21st - 09:59am | kath

What is the position of the National Park Lodge of the Fraternal Order of Police or law enforcement park rangers in general? I don't know whether permitting the carrying of weapons in national parks would decrease or increase crime, but it does appear that crime in the backcountry is increasing.

Guns in the Parks: A Bad Idea

Nov 21st - 08:24am | kath

The comment about just a few stagecoach robberies in Yellowstone in the olden days was not only flippant but ill informed.

Nov 21st - 08:23am | kath

Then there was the 1992 'incident' in which an escaped convict from the Arizona state pen hid out on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon, kidnapping and robbing tourists along the way to make his getaway.

Nov 21st - 06:51am | kath

Another 'incident' not mentioned is the murder of a national park volunteer in Yosemite a few years ago.

Nov 21st - 05:15am | dutch

Kurt. This law enables law abiding people to carry. The criminals already are (they don't obey gun bans). Therefore, the "pistol packing hiker" is not going to "take you on" unless you are going to rape him.

Nov 20th - 21:46pm | Dennis Olson

I think it would make more sense to ban cars from all national parks since more people are killed and injured by cars than guns. Maybe it's time we understood what threats are real and what are not.

Nov 20th - 20:31pm | Jon Carruthers

Does anyone find it odd that of all the posts so far in response to this blog...NOT ONE AGREES WITH THE AUTHOR...?? I, for one, am loving it.

Nov 20th - 17:35pm | Rod Adams

All I desire is the ability to protect my family and self from predators while enjoying the scenic beauty within our Nation's parks. The predators I describe include both wild animal and un-lawful human bent on causing harm, or worse, death.

Nov 20th - 16:36pm | LeeA from VA

Posting a "No Firearms" sign is like posting a "Helpless Victims Here" sign. Criminals by definition DO NOT obey the law! They (criminals) are like preditory animals. They attack the weak. You will not see a lion attack a full grown healthy elephant but if the elephant is sick, wounded or a baby he becomes lunch.

Nov 20th - 14:35pm | MikeB

I had the courtesy of riding home with a senior level member of the Nat'l Park Svc a year ago and discussed safety in the Nat'l Parks. I was told that there is a lot of crime that goes unreported...and that criminals, like pedophiles and violent criminals, who have been shunned by society are now seeking refuge in National Parks.

Nov 20th - 14:31pm | Day Hiker

Month after month, article after article, right out of the National Park Service Morning Reports: Man arrested for Rape in Park Murder Suspects Arrested Attempted Homicides Fatal Shootings Assaults on Visitors Homicide Investigations Kidnapping Felony Drug Trafficking Animal attacks The life threatening list goes on and on. As a law abiding citizen I have the right

Nov 20th - 14:02pm | kath

According to the NPS website, guns are permitted in some Alaska national parks.

Nov 20th - 13:16pm | Tim Hartle

"Do we really want to legalize toting guns around in national parks? " We most certainly do. And you SHOULD worry about the next person you encounter packing heat in a park. Right now there's an excellent chance he's a bad guy looking for a defenseless target. If you choose to be one of those targets, that's your right. I prefer to be prepared to defend myself. That should be my right.

Nov 20th - 11:17am | Gabe

If "No Guns" sign actually worked, I'd wear one. Since they don't, I wear my gun instead. Criminals are just that, criminals. They don't care what the law says and they certainly don't care what a sign says. Shouldn't the author of this blog want criminals to afraid of robbing/killing/raping/etc... not encouraged?

Nov 20th - 10:55am | Joel M

The National Park System comprises 390 areas covering more than 84 million acres and has 1400 permanent law enforcement rangers, adding an additional 500 during peak season (2002 statistics, it's probably lower now since they've suffered budget cuts every year). Even at 1900 law enforcement rangers that works out to 44,210.5 acres per ranger. That sure makes me feel safe.

Nov 20th - 10:04am | Rick Povich

Don says," I had two incidents with firearms in a park as a Ranger. In one case, two off-duty cops had their service weapons, as required by their department. They apologized when they recognized the rules outside their "territory"." So you gave them a special break just because they were law enforcement? Well they violated the regulation and you knew it.

Nov 20th - 09:21am | Doug Troutman

I had two incidents with firearms in a park as a Ranger. In one case, two off-duty cops had their service weapons, as required by their department. They apologized when they recognized the rules outside their "territory".

Nov 20th - 08:49am | Don Pollock

Sorry Kurt - my safety isn't your call! When the "fit hits the shan" there's likely to be only two parties present...attacker(s) and victim. Rather than rely on others, I opt to have a say in the matter.

Nov 20th - 07:57am | Mike Wright

"Great. That's all we need, a backcountry full of pistol-packing hikers ready to take you on. This guy seems a little over the edge to me." Give me a break. Is that his argument aginst this bill? Then, we're blessed with this gem:

Nov 20th - 07:34am | JimKiser

Well I was going to add all the info about the drug dealers and poachers taking over the Parks, but it seems to be piling on. I think the point has been made. In Va where I live our crime rate is much lower than the district and Md. If you think the Parks are bad try the National Mall at night where the Park police supposedly patrol. Shootings robberies and rapes every month.

Nov 20th - 07:02am | Rick Povich

The comment posted above by Dexter Guptill is right on the money, "I suspect the families of Julianne Williams and Lollie Winans don't appreciate your flippancy. The 24 and 26 year old women were murdered in Shenandoah National Park in June 1996." You see, my wife and I were hiking on that very trail a few hours after she'd jogged alone. later that day we found out the two women had been killed.

Nov 20th - 06:37am | Dave Yates

As a matter of law, the National Parks regulation which prohibits firearms also criminalizes firearms for off duty law enforcement officers, notwithstanding HR218. The Federal LEOSA did not address, or supercede the CFR. Thus, your safety in a National Park is at the whim and mercy of the very limited staff of Park Rangers and US Park Police.

Nov 20th - 06:21am | Jimmy W.

All a person needs to do is review the news over the past couple of years to see what kind of bad stuff is already going on in the parks. As others have mentioned, meth labs, marijuana fields and worse are already abound. In addition, there have been several well-covered cases of violent criminals holding up in the backcountry of various parks... some of these have preyed upon tourists.

Nov 20th - 06:04am | CommonSense

Gee, I wonder if all criminals follow the law and think to themselves; " It's against the law to carry a firearm while I rob these happy trailhikers. I better not bring my firearm." Please people, the law abiding citizen who elects to carry doesn't tote it around to intimidate innocent people. It's for protection!

Nov 20th - 06:04am | Chris Chubb

Do you really want be disarmed where you are the farthest from law enforcement? With drug smugglers and growers using the backcountry as their private weed farms or meth labs, you never know what you will trip over when out for a walk.

Nov 20th - 05:26am | Scott mallonee

Kurt, You say, " ...we seem to have made it into the 21st Century without a spate of backcountry holdups (although there were a handful of stagecoach holdups back in the early 1900s in Yellowstone)."

Nov 20th - 05:22am | Dexter Guptill

Here's a clue: The people who are "ready to take you on" are already carrying. They're called criminals. Nationwide, people with permits have a lower crime rate than some (New Orleans, for example) police departments.

Nov 20th - 04:42am | Mike Frantzen

I ride my bike through a national park sometimes for up to 8 hours a week. Next to a restroom they have a notice board with events they hold, rules and restrictions, and sketches of all of the criminals that they're looking for who committed crimes in that national park. There is very little police presence in the national parks so there is little to deter a criminal.

Nov 20th - 04:24am | Alan Rose

Lets see, National Forests already follow state law, so all Virginians can carry their legal guns there, and, to use your logic, I don't recall hearing about that leading to any mass shootings by permit holders.

Nov 20th - 04:06am | VA Hiker

News Flash: criminals don't care which way this issue goes. They're carrying guns wherever they like. Is there something magical about a park that suddenly erases the fact that I'm trained, tested, and licensed by the state to carry a firearm?

Nov 20th - 03:26am | Wayne Baughman

GUNS IN PARKS: GOOD IDEA "That's all we need...pistol-packing hikers ready to take you on."

Nov 19th - 23:32pm | Robert Green

While I certainly understand that criminals carrying firearms in national parks is a scary thought, I am not sure how this line of reasoning should apply to law abiding citizens. Criminals are criminals beacause they do not respect nor care about the law. I may be mistaken, but I believe the Appalachian Trail has had quite a history of murders & rapes. I am sorry but your logic is flawed.

Nov 19th - 21:19pm | countertop

btw, while I really hate to criticize folks on blogs that I just discovered (and like, I really do think this is a neat idea - and well done) this statement I'd feel safer in the backcountry knowing that guns are prohibited rather than worrying that the next person I encounter might be packing heat. Is about as asinine a statement as I've heard in a while.

Nov 19th - 21:14pm | countertop

All good comments. In addition, I'd point out that the only reason guns aren't allowed now has to do with fear of poachers. Fine. If someone is poaching - prosecute them. But just because I have my Colt with me doesn't mean I am up to no good.

Nov 19th - 21:12pm | KP97

Modern psychologists say that fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. I'm willing to set aside the authors emotional state and talk bout the bill of rights, or just plain common sense. I'm a 4th generation native of Montana. We don't venture out in the wild without protection from the wild animals. At least you can predict their behavior.

Nov 19th - 17:11pm | K. Fry

Why do some people think "forbidding" firearms causes their worried little butts to be "safer?" Criminals don't follow laws. Stick with me here Sunshine, but that's why we call them "criminals." We "forbid" murder, rape, robbery, etc., yet these are everyday occurences.

Nov 17th - 21:57pm | kath

Unfortunately, human and drug smugglers are carrying weapons in Organ Pipe and Big Bend. And the drug cartels defend their pot patches in Sequoia and Redwood N. P. with automatic weapons.

Nov 17th - 21:50pm | Fred Miller

In a PERFECT world, the most dangerous thing being carried in a National Park would be a pair of binoculars. Sadly, we do NOT live in a perfect world. There are already a number of people carrying firearms in National Parks. "THAT CAN'T BE!!", you say. "It's illegal to carry firearms in National Parks!!" Yes, it is. That's the whole point here. The law-BREAKING bad guy has his gun WITH HIM!!

Welcome Gun Owners!

Nov 21st - 07:49am | Dave Yates

Quote------ Under most of the counterarguments offered, the general thinking seems to be that to protect ourselves we all should be carrying our own gleaming, semi-automatic, or perhaps even automatic, pieces to ensure safety in society. Frankly, folks, I don't see how that's going to accomplish much beyond an increase in the number of shoot-outs. Quote------

Nov 20th - 16:38pm | Steve Sergeant

Here's an audio documentary about the work it takes to restore a pot plantation after the growers have been busted and the plants removed by law enforcement: http://www.wildebeat.net/shows/outings/E019.html This is a big job that has to be done by volunteers, because none of the parks can afford the labor to do it.

Nov 20th - 12:52pm | kath

Here's the article on the bust in Point Reyes. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/06/POTFARMS.TMP

Nov 20th - 12:30pm | kath

Unfortunately, the majority of people think that smoking pot and by extension growing marijuana aren't serious crimes. There needs to be some sort of public educational spots showing the damage to the parks it causes and linking that directly to those who think that smoking pot is a harmless diversion. "This is your national park on drugs" comes to mind.

Nov 20th - 11:09am | Rick Smith

Kurt-- You are getting the standard reaction from the "guns don't kill people; people kill people" crowd. Visitors don't need guns in parks and these places are a lot safer because people are not carrying weapons. Legitimate hunters break down their weapons before transporting them across parks.

Nov 20th - 10:13am | repanshek

Kath, There are nearly 400 units in the national park system and I am one person with a keyboard who runs this blog when I'm not trying to make a living. In other words, there's no way I could possibly stay atop of every news story in the park system.

Nov 20th - 08:25am | kath

P. S.

Nov 20th - 07:57am | kath

I'm the poster who made the comments about illegal immigrants and drug smugglers making Organ Pipe a 'no go' for hikers and the marijuana fields problem in Sequoia. Hikers are in danger in the foothills of that park from drug growers.

Yellowstone Officials Prefer Snowmobiles

Nov 20th - 20:01pm | Snowbird

I smell a rat in the hole with this report. The so called park bureaucrats are trying their best to skew any report, or mandate that would restrict the excessive use of snowmobiles in Yellowstone National Park.It's not about preservation of Yellowstone, but the preservation of the pocketbook of the recreational industry

Death Valley Showdown

Nov 19th - 19:36pm | Dan Hyatt

Mr. Patterson, you claim there is lots of lands, But you don't mention that the organization you head sues to close each of these areas. You managed to get Death Valley national Park, which is good. But didn't get this cherry stem, because Congress disagrees with you.

Nov 19th - 18:01pm | Andrew Simpkins

You are so wrong. The 1994 Desert Protection Act cherrystemmed the Surprise Canyon Road into the wilderness area it created. Look at any map and you will see Surprise Canyon Road marked as a road, surrounded by wilderness. The road was open for seven years after the act was passed, having been closed only in 2001.

Nov 17th - 20:12pm | Richard M. Carter

You failed to mention that the "off-roaders" that filed the lawsuit are landowners in Panamint City that have been denied legal easement to their land.

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