| Page 1579 | National Parks Traveler

I go to Harper's Ferry from time to time and am trying to understand the geography of this. I take it that the subdivision is away from the main part of the park because geography would make that impossible. Along the Shenandoah there quickly rise extremely steep cliffs where a sub-development would be impossible.

Poll: Grand Canyon: A Different View

Jan 10th - 19:10pm | Mookie

Hey Kath, maybe you should stop going to Yosemite campfire programs then.

Jan 10th - 13:40pm | kath

Does the Grand Canyon bookstore sell books on Native American myths on the formation of the Grand Canyon? If so, then there shouldn't be discrimination. (How many times have I had to listen to a ranger at a Yosemite campfire program droning on about 'coyote' and 'raven' and some other Ahwahneechee tale about how the rocks came to Yosemite?)

Jan 10th - 12:24pm | Jim Macdonald

Well, I'm not changing my vote unless the wording is changed; you want to ask us whether it's a good reason whether a book should be sold because it has a creationist point of view; instead, you are asking us whether a particular book with a creationist point of view should be sold. Those aren't the same question, and so my vote stays the same.

Jan 10th - 12:16pm | repanshek

Jim, methinks you're thinking too hard on this one.

Jan 10th - 12:05pm | Jim Macdonald

Kurt,

Is the Park Service Billion-Phobic?

Jan 10th - 16:33pm | Ranger X

"The grand canyon is a wonderful example of how god does not exist, try not to spoil it with creationist rhetoric." I'll ignore your comma splice and focus instead on your juvenile attitude and silly assertions. First, why are you so angry? Really? And using war as a metaphor to describe the difference between scientific and religious thought? Tsk tsk.

Jan 10th - 10:26am | Ike

The cosmologist, Stephen Hawking in his book A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME routinely uses thousands of millions of years to describe ages and events within the history of the universe. Stating the age of the canyon in this way is not out of the ordinary.

Jan 10th - 08:46am | Scientific Theorist

Ranger X, How do you expect to win the war against naive Christian thinking if you don't even give them the facts. The grand canyon is a wonderful example of how god does not exist, try not to spoil it with creationist rhetoric.

Jan 10th - 08:38am | Scientific Theorist

Well I appreciate your call to the NPS. It is now even more clear that the website is catering to the religious right. I just wonder why you were so quick to defend them in your original posts. It is a well-known tactic of creationists to frame scientific data into a format which they can digest, regardless of whether they are correct in doing so.

Jan 10th - 08:11am | kath

Saying "2000 million years" makes it easier for people to compare with the 4 to 6 million year age of the canyon. Lots of people don't know how many millions a billion is.

Jan 9th - 19:07pm | Ranger X

I wondered where I had seen the term "thousands of millions of years" and broke out "The Sculpturing of Zion" by geologist Wayne Hamilton, Ph.D. Appendix A: Time Scale for the Earth labels its axis "Thousands of millions (billions) of years ago". Then I did a search at Yahoo! for geology + "thousands of millions of years"

Happy Birthday Wind Cave NP

Jan 10th - 05:47am | Mookie

Too bad you missed it. My wife and I visited this past summer, and we loved it. In our cave tour, the first of the day, the ranger actually turned off the lights in the cave to give us an idea of how dark complete blackness can be. He also lit up the cave with the old fashioned paint can & candle device...amazing how much light those can give off.

Jan 9th - 04:31am | Jim Macdonald

I went to Wind Cave once. I was so disappointed. I had driven for hours through the Black Hills just to have a chance to see it. I never enjoy driving through the Black Hills--and wish I could say that was for political reasons. When I finally got there, it was interesting above ground with the bison. However, the elevators to the caves were not operational. It was such a big bummer.

A Celebration of Life Spurs Parks Tour

Jan 9th - 07:37am | Snowbird

Kurt,there's nice message about this story!

Jan 9th - 05:51am | Gabrielle

Dear Snowbird, thank you also!

Jan 9th - 05:50am | Gabrielle

Dear Kurt, you rock! Thanks so much for your kind words. We will indeed keep on trekking. I know you will too. I love the variety on your site. Please continue to make the Parks fun and interesting and accessible to both seasoned and potential visitors. Best wishes.

Jan 8th - 19:50pm | Snowbird

More power to you, Gab & Michael! Your my kind of people. I love your spunk and zest for life. Keep on trekking!

Jan 8th - 13:26pm | repanshek

Scholar (and all your pseudonyms), You are pontificating, and that shines poorly on the scientific community. The fact that you have to hide behind various names diminishes your arguments as well. Too, your assumption of my beliefs, if indeed you are directing your comments at me, goes against scientific method. Understand me before you attempt to dole out your disdain.

Jan 8th - 12:38pm | Scholar

I feel that it is my duty to provide this link. It explains why we scientists disdain attempts to equate Intelligent Design with scientific theories such as evolution and gravity. http://edge.org/3rd_culture/it06/it06_index.html

God, Geology, and the Grand Canyon

Jan 8th - 16:21pm | Jim Macdonald

*devilish* What else is OBVIOUSLY weird is that 2 billion years is closer to 6,000 years than it is to 4 billion! One might say that the NPS is 60 hundred years closer to the fundamentalist religious right than they are to the oldest rocks in North America that surely evolution wouldn't have placed in Northern Canada. I smell a monkey! *question: Is my sarcasm sufficiently sarcastic?*

Jan 8th - 15:30pm | Jeffrey Weiss

Not that it has anything clearly to do with faith/nofaith. But the page that link goes to *is* oddly worded: "Although the oldest rocks at Grand Canyon (2000 million years old) are fairly old by any standard, the oldest rocks in the world are closer to 4000 million years old. The oldest exposed rocks in North America, which are among the oldest rocks in the world, are in northern Canada."

Jan 7th - 20:00pm | Fan of redstat...

For Luther the Canyon Lover http://www.nps.gov/grca/faqs.htm#old

Jan 6th - 15:08pm | Jim Macdonald

kath,

Jan 6th - 13:10pm | Luther the Can...

Well thanks for the article. How many of you have actually been to the website in question?

Jan 6th - 09:25am | Snowbird

Kath, I also believe that cultural anthropology has a place with the NPS...doesn't the American Indian represent this with it's rich cultural burial customs...and it's sacred religious ceremonies that depict it's historical ancestry in America...outside the sever repression and exploitation by the land grabbers. Don't you think perhaps your a bit cold on this issue.

Jan 6th - 08:18am | kath

Jim, I don't follow. Are you saying that by reason of 'history, oppression and domination of land' that Native Americans should control what goes on in national parks? By that reasoning the whole park could be turned back to the tribes. No, science should be the standard for the displays at the National Parks, period.

A Winter's Trek to Yellowstone

Jan 8th - 16:18pm | Ranger X

I can't wait to see Yellowstone in winter! Thanks for the post!

Jan 8th - 13:52pm | Jim Macdonald

I am not a creationist, but I'm curious what kind of scientist uses words like "proven" so sloppily. Scientists use induction and therefore always present hypotheses and theories which are probable. That is, they are falsifiable and therefore never proven.

Jan 8th - 12:34pm | Diamond

http://edge.org/3rd_culture/it06/it06_index.html No insult intended. I may have let my emotions control my posts. Here is a link which may help you understand why we scientists think that you who believe in the supernatural are soooooo NAIVE.

Jan 7th - 19:46pm | Ruby

Oh, BTW...Ya don't have to be a "right-winger" to believe in God....

Jan 7th - 19:45pm | Ruby

Now I'll bet all you elitist "scientist" types PRAYED a lot to GOD when y'all were taking those finals!! LOL!!

Jan 7th - 00:55am | Crazy Smart Dude

Well I like the fact that you said right wingers don't like you either. You handled my tirade pretty well, that was me posting under all those different names. Maybe I have you pegged wrong, I will take a second look. But in the meantime, prepare your defenses for an attack BY science.

Jan 6th - 14:04pm | repanshek

Scholar, obviously you need to get a better understanding of sarcasm, spend some more time reading my posts, and get out of the 'burbs a little more often.

Jan 6th - 13:51pm | Scholar

Maybe the increase in hits is due to the fact that you are presuming that God exists in all of your posts. Just a thought, why not try posting without assuming that God exists. That way people with scientific educations could also enjoy your website.

God, Politics and Parks

Jan 6th - 16:48pm | Ranger X

"...the absurd suggestion that I or anyone thinks selling religious texts in the parks could possibly serve as a primary source of income for the Park Service." Thanks Kurt. Was thinking the same and couldn't have said it better. "...the events of this past week show parks by themselves simply aren't sexy enough to draw attention."

Jan 6th - 14:20pm | repanshek

Let's see, in the past two months I've managed to draw the ire of the gun lobby, the right wingers, and now the left wingers. I'd say that's a pretty good record for trying to stay in the middle of the road.

Jan 6th - 13:46pm | DUH

Kurt, did you ever think that you guys might solve the budget crisis in a better way? Rather than selling religious texts as a primary source of income, why not focus on the science, that way the "interpretive park rangers" would be more likely to get funding. NOW THATS AN IRONY WORTH BURNING

Jan 6th - 13:40pm | Benji the Dog

At this point, I think we should BOYCOTT the NPS.

Jan 6th - 13:38pm | School Teacher...

Well, I tried the website too, and it has plenty of great information about the park. Nature Lady is correct though, it seems like they are hiding something. The well accepted scientific data suggests that the age of the rock in the Canyon have dated to over 2 Billion years.

Jan 6th - 13:32pm | Nature Lady

It is painfully obvious that the NPS website is avoiding the issue of the age of the Grand Canyon. Contrary to what Kurt has been posting here, the NPS website does not do justice to science. Further, it seems like they are worried about turning away visitors, which could be a noble cause in itself, but the religious reasoning behind it makes it DEPLORABLE.

Jan 6th - 13:29pm | Heather Flanagan

Here is a quirky video about global warming I thought you might find interesting: http://peoplegeek.wordpress.com/2007/01/06/global-warming-a-clear-and-present-danger/

Jan 6th - 12:17pm | kath

I agree with Ranger X. The ranger talks should be scientifically based. But to ban a book from the bookstore because it's creationist is censorship, which I don't support.

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