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God, Geology, and the Grand Canyon

Jan 14th - 17:50pm | Geoff Arnold

Two points from a non-American reader. First, the avoidance of the word "billion" is probably done to reduce confusion for non-US visitors: in many parts of the world a "billion" (still) means "a million million". Secondly, even though I don't think the website is at all misleading about the age of the Canyon, I was disappointed at the cursory treatment of the geological history.

Jan 14th - 12:54pm | J Irving

@Jeffrey Weiss, maybe they're playing it safe for an international audience? Billion doesn't mean 1,000,000,000 to everyone yet. I'm sure it will, as American is adopted as the world view of, well, the world. It's already less common than it once was, but for now some people still use billion to mean 1,000,000,000,000.

Jan 13th - 10:56am | Anne BKlos

I am grateful to you, Kurt, for clearing this up for me. When my son first sent me this story I was shocked and horrified, but also highly skeptical; it just didn't sound right. It fit in the same category as "too good to be true"; only in this case it was more, "too stupid to be true." In addition, I couldn't find any mainstream coverage of what should be a BIG story, nor any other verificatin.

Mary Wants More Private Funding--Updated

Jan 14th - 16:57pm | Trista

We DO need more private/corporate donors...with a very long war in progress with fanatics who wish us all dead, government funding is gonna be hard to come by. Good for Mary!

Jan 14th - 16:54pm | Trista

Hey Ranger X...I'll bet YOU DROVE to & from work there, too...and I'll bet ya drove to Fresno or Visalia once in awhile too...*chuckle*

Jan 13th - 19:34pm | Alan

OK. Great. I can hardly wait to motor down to Gettysburg (100 miles or so from where I sit) to visit the forthcoming Frito Lay Gettysburg NHP Visitor Center. And I sure wouldn't want to miss out on a visit to the Pepsi Experience visitor kiosk at the Delaware Water Gap NRA.

Jan 13th - 15:30pm | Ranger X

When I worked at Sequoia-Kings, the visitor-orientation slide show was sponsored by Ford, and every half hour, I had to hear "This program is brought to you by Ford Motor Company." This in the national park with the worst air quality, due largely to cars!

Mount Rainier Repair Monies Found

Jan 14th - 16:48pm | Trista

My, my how do we ever make you libbies happy...ya bi*ch when you don't have a good enuf meal at the gubmint trough, and ya bi*ch when ya do!! Always angry....

Blue Ridge Photography Contest

Jan 13th - 18:28pm | magon patterson

i thank it is cool

Jan 13th - 18:27pm | magon patterson

i thank it is cool

Investigation Continues into Speedie Deaths

Jan 13th - 17:03pm | Drew was very ...

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2007/01/12/news/wyoming/bd74cdc6186f46f58725726100075829.txt

More Opposition to Crater Lake Fee Hike

Jan 13th - 14:08pm | JLongstreet

A lot has changed regarding resource management in the NPS since Chase wrote his book.

Jan 12th - 09:17am | Jim Macdonald

Ranger X, that's right. That scientists are rangers is another one of Chase's criticisms. It didn't always used to be that way; I think the re-organization goes back to the 1960s. All of it can be very confusing to keep straight for me, especially given the complexities of the law.

Jan 12th - 08:46am | Ranger X

From my experience, it seems most NPS dollars go to administrative salaries and road repairs. Resource management salaries, or "scientist" salaries, are a small portion of park budgets. And they are considered rangers and often wear the same uniform as law enforcement and interpretation.

Jan 12th - 06:39am | Jim Macdonald

Historically, the science budget in the national parks has been anemic.

Jan 11th - 22:34pm | Randy

Yes, that is what the "NPS budget" is for, but we also have other national priorities (securing our borders, winning the War on Terror) in addition to maintaining our parks. Besides, ya know where most of the NPS budget is spent?...try too many scientists making $$$$$$$ instead of rangers making $$.

Groups Want Contractor Who Bulldozed Harpers Ferry Park Sued

Jan 12th - 07:30am | Jim Macdonald

Okay, the essay is written, drawing upon a lot said here but hopefully better written and therefore more coherently expressed: "Why KKK speech is not free speech" http://www.yellowstone-online.com/2007/01/why-kkk-speech-is-not-free-speech.html

Jan 12th - 06:37am | Jim Macdonald

But, the very notion of a "national park" is by itself a "political" use; it is a political boundary set aside for a particular purpose. It would be all the more ironic for such a prohibition at Harper's Ferry! I think what you are proposing is perhaps the only one I've heard worse than allowing the Klan to speak because the power of the government is just that much more overwhelming.

Jan 11th - 22:50pm | Randy

...and no POLITICAL use...the reason for the assembly should be related to the individual park mission...visitors on their summer vacation should not have to be confronted with mobs of angry people or those with a political agenda.

Jan 11th - 22:46pm | Randy

A simple solution would be to deny permits to any group unless their reason for assembly is park-related. No "protests" of any kind should be allowed.

Jan 11th - 11:29am | Snowbird

Kurt, your point is well taken. Your comment gives me good insight to my after thoughts.

Jan 11th - 09:46am | Jim Macdonald

My point has been that the KKK is not simply being opposed on the grounds of the content of their speech but the actual application of their speech toward oppression. They don't just speak nonsense; I have no problem with a bunch of idiots like Free Republic being allowed to speak. They wield no influence at all with their hate speech.

Jan 11th - 09:34am | repanshek

Oh, I don't know, Snowbird, I think I'd have to side with Kath. Do we really want the government to say what is and what isn't free speech? Certainly there are laws in place to deal with inciting a riot and shouting "fire" in a theater.

Jan 11th - 09:15am | Snowbird

Kath, what happened at Kent State?... a peaceful march and demonstration...then choas! A peaceful demonstration that went amuck after the National Guard started shooting at students...I think suppression was acted here! Besides, I thought Kurts blog was about the NPS, unless I'm missing point here.

Jan 11th - 08:31am | kath

The government cannot make distinctions on which groups are given permits to speak on public land due to the content of their speech. That's basic First Amendment. The framers didn't want the Congress to ban speech that was unpopular. The framers believed that the best way to counter one speech was with more speech.

Jan 10th - 19:23pm | Mookie

In the line of what Jim says, I agree. The reason why one is not "free" to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater where there is no fire is because that speech endangers the public around that person. In the same way, giving the KKK this platform endangers the public around the KKK.

Jan 10th - 13:51pm | Jim Macdonald

kath,

Jan 10th - 13:47pm | Jim Macdonald

Well, that and a bit more. I'm suggesting that in the way that free speech is managed by the government, that it's a fiction that there actually is equal access to speech regardless of what one believes. I'm also suggesting, though, that not all use of speech constitutes free speech.

Jan 10th - 13:43pm | kath

Not if Jim has his way and only groups Jim approves of get to speak in public.

Jan 10th - 11:58am | Snowbird

Jim, I believe, and think what your saying is that...we really don't live in a "free country"! Right?

Jan 10th - 10:51am | Jim Macdonald

So, you should actually be quite supportive of the actions against the Klan. What is free speech? If by free speech, it is speech that actually contributes to others not being able to have it, is it free?

Jan 10th - 08:15am | kath

Free speech means free speech for all. You can't have 'free speech for me but not for thee'. The men at Gettysburg died to preserve America and its Constitution including the First Amendment.

Jan 10th - 06:27am | Jim Macdonald

I go to Harper's Ferry from time to time and am trying to understand the geography of this. I take it that the subdivision is away from the main part of the park because geography would make that impossible. Along the Shenandoah there quickly rise extremely steep cliffs where a sub-development would be impossible.

Poll: Grand Canyon: A Different View

Jan 11th - 21:45pm | Pantera

Here is a link to a well written book review of the pseudo-science book "A Different View". I think it is best if everyone just lets the park be the park, and keep the politics in Washington. http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bibliolatry_revisited_elders.htm

Jan 11th - 20:01pm | Jackal

I don't think that the government should have anything to do with supporting alternative theories to science. These young earth theories have been disallowed in schools for good reason. Science has proven all of the young earth theories to be false.

Jan 10th - 19:39pm | Snowbird

Let's leave the bible belt creationist folks out of this, and let the Native Americans tell their camp fire stories with chant drum beats... like what Scott Momaday writes about...it brings in so much more to the outdoor experience. Keep your church creationist theories in your closet where they belong. I prefer to keep my christian views exactly where they belong...at my local church!

Jan 10th - 19:10pm | Mookie

Hey Kath, maybe you should stop going to Yosemite campfire programs then.

Jan 10th - 13:40pm | kath

Does the Grand Canyon bookstore sell books on Native American myths on the formation of the Grand Canyon? If so, then there shouldn't be discrimination. (How many times have I had to listen to a ranger at a Yosemite campfire program droning on about 'coyote' and 'raven' and some other Ahwahneechee tale about how the rocks came to Yosemite?)

Jan 10th - 12:24pm | Jim Macdonald

Well, I'm not changing my vote unless the wording is changed; you want to ask us whether it's a good reason whether a book should be sold because it has a creationist point of view; instead, you are asking us whether a particular book with a creationist point of view should be sold. Those aren't the same question, and so my vote stays the same.

Jan 10th - 12:16pm | repanshek

Jim, methinks you're thinking too hard on this one.

Jan 10th - 12:05pm | Jim Macdonald

Kurt,

Is the Park Service Billion-Phobic?

Jan 10th - 16:33pm | Ranger X

"The grand canyon is a wonderful example of how god does not exist, try not to spoil it with creationist rhetoric." I'll ignore your comma splice and focus instead on your juvenile attitude and silly assertions. First, why are you so angry? Really? And using war as a metaphor to describe the difference between scientific and religious thought? Tsk tsk.

Jan 10th - 10:26am | Ike

The cosmologist, Stephen Hawking in his book A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME routinely uses thousands of millions of years to describe ages and events within the history of the universe. Stating the age of the canyon in this way is not out of the ordinary.

Jan 10th - 08:46am | Scientific Theorist

Ranger X, How do you expect to win the war against naive Christian thinking if you don't even give them the facts. The grand canyon is a wonderful example of how god does not exist, try not to spoil it with creationist rhetoric.

Jan 10th - 08:38am | Scientific Theorist

Well I appreciate your call to the NPS. It is now even more clear that the website is catering to the religious right. I just wonder why you were so quick to defend them in your original posts. It is a well-known tactic of creationists to frame scientific data into a format which they can digest, regardless of whether they are correct in doing so.

Jan 10th - 08:11am | kath

Saying "2000 million years" makes it easier for people to compare with the 4 to 6 million year age of the canyon. Lots of people don't know how many millions a billion is.

Jan 9th - 19:07pm | Ranger X

I wondered where I had seen the term "thousands of millions of years" and broke out "The Sculpturing of Zion" by geologist Wayne Hamilton, Ph.D. Appendix A: Time Scale for the Earth labels its axis "Thousands of millions (billions) of years ago". Then I did a search at Yahoo! for geology + "thousands of millions of years"

Happy Birthday Wind Cave NP

Jan 10th - 05:47am | Mookie

Too bad you missed it. My wife and I visited this past summer, and we loved it. In our cave tour, the first of the day, the ranger actually turned off the lights in the cave to give us an idea of how dark complete blackness can be. He also lit up the cave with the old fashioned paint can & candle device...amazing how much light those can give off.

A Celebration of Life Spurs Parks Tour

Jan 9th - 07:37am | Snowbird

Kurt,there's nice message about this story!

Jan 9th - 05:51am | Gabrielle

Dear Snowbird, thank you also!

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